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He's right, it IS kind of stupid.

  • Dec. 5th, 2006 at 12:21 AM
FIGHT
Tom Spurgeon talks about pissing into the near wind:

There's a really snotty part of me that, whenever I read about people dismayed by the seething misogyny and other general, horrifying values embodied by the fruits of the American mainstream comic book industry, kind of marvels at the casual familiarity so many of those criticizing have with the offending material. I wonder if this is one of those weird cultural constructs we can trace back to Dr. Jerry Bails and other original, hardcore fans -- this notion that you're not interacting with a specific product that could and should be given the finger, walked away from and mocked when it turns sour, but that you're invested in this tradition of serial readership that asks for your commitment, a tradition that, when it fails you, calls on your ability to reform it and set things right.

He's right, of course--snotty, but right. As a consumer, if you don't like something, you generally pack it up and take your wallet elsewhere. God knows enough people have over the decades, which is how comics got the way they are. I honestly don't understand complaining about something over and over again and coming back to it anyway out of fannishness. I admit, I did pick up Infinite Crisis, but that was more a trainwrecky sort of morbid curiosity: I wanted to see what exactly DC was going to do with Booster now that...whatever the fuck happened to him in IC happened to him, and was greatly disappointed with the babysitting result. I mean, at least Skeets got to kill people, you know? I thought for sure Booster could do something a little more interesting (although ineffably fucked-up). The last floppy comic I bought was Sergio Aragones' issue of Solo, and before that I guess it was the end of Kyle Baker's Plastic Man, so those are the only two things I bought because I had a reasonable expectation that I would like them. The point of this is to illustrate that yes, I rail against most of this crap, but I'm comfortable with that, since DC doesn't actually get any of my money in the process.

At this point you may find yourself wondering why I still pay attention to things like, say, this, even though I have no affection for it and no inclination ever to buy it. To this, of course, the only answer is, "I want to make comics for real American dollars, thanks much." I pay attention to this kind of nonsense because I have to familiarize myself with the market, the major players, et cetera if I'm going to be able to sell anything. If I wanted to make manga, I would have to pay a lot of attention to Tokyopop and the other OEL publishers, which would be an entirely new flavor of repulsive madness.

But I don't make manga. I make comics. Maybe poorly, but still--there are many others like them, but these ones are mine.

[Aside: You know damn well what I mean here. Of course manga are comics. So are bandes desinees, or however the Hell it's spelled. But American comics are paced differently than manga, and that is how I pace my work. I think. I have no idea what my influences are, or why I do any of the things I do. I just know that I do them and sometimes they are fun. And that they aren't very Japanese at all.]

[Other aside: Except for Booster in Translation. Call me, DC!]

[One more: Maybe not "many".]

Because I want to make comics, it behooves me to know what's selling, so I know who might be receptive to what I have for offer, and who mightn't. Thus, I have to familiarize myself with the fact that a whole lot of mouthbreathers are apparently looking forward to a scabby superhero calling the first supervillain out of Bucks County a pussy bitch. (And that no one at DC has ever seen a Philly cop or, even more possibly, Philly itself. Or jodhpurs. Or a human thigh.) Many of these people seem to have erections over it. This is clearly not a good market for my comics, though mine also feature violence and being a jerk to people.

This is the entire reason that I got back into comics a few years ago in the first place, though I enjoyed manga and had pretty comic-geeky friends (hi Gene!). Would I have read Watchmen if I didn't want to make comics? No. Good as it is (and it is very good), I wouldn't have even thought about picking it up unless I was trying to familiarize myself with the comics canon (such as it is). But because I had to know what had been done, and what could be done, I had to go through a lot of comics. Many of them, I must say, were pretty bad, but that may be because there are only so many comics you can read about Nice Guys Who Draw and the Coffee Shop Girls Who Don't Love Them before you start wishing for the death of everyone on Earth, starting with the NGWD, moving onto the CSGWDLT (who would see the NGWDs' horrible deaths, realize that they DID love them, and then die painfully immediately afterward), and then spreading over to whoever you feel needs killin'. I didn't return to the comics I loved when I was a little kid (and thus, semi-fannishness) until I joined scans_daily and found that someone had thoughtfully slaughtered many of my childhood favorites while I wasn't using them; that drove me to look back at the old stuff and find the few modern superhero comics I think are worthwhile. But again, none of this would have happened if I had wanted to write novels instead--having put Western superhero comics behind me as a kid, I had no reason to, and if I want to read something for fun, I usually stick to manga.

It's only natural, once you come across material that you don't particularly want to get involved with, to notice its flaws. In comics' case, those flaws are usually selling points--yes, it COULD cut down on our audience to give all the women nipple-spikes (not that it does, because we are AWESOME and they are just jealous and probably gay), but only the true aficionado can really appreciate the delicious storytelling possibilities inherent in Lady Sharptits, of whom your spotty virgin ass is surely one. (Plus, it's totally hot.) You can't escape the misogyny and other frankly insane bullshit that goes on unless you really try, and even then you have to be more than a little disingenuous. (And post on Newsarama.) For those of us who actually want to make comics, it makes sense to complain about these things and to try to change them for the better--partly because if we don't want to make comics about superheroes who are radical TO THE MAXX, it would be helpful in getting work at the established companies if they took down the "You must be at least this rapey to enter" signs, and partly because if comics aren't incredibly off-putting to people who no longer live with their parents, then there might be more of an audience for what we want to do. If these things persist, then they're dragging my preferred idiom down to Hell with them, and what right have they got to do that? What's more, what do a bunch of bedwetting perverts have to objectify and denigrate ME? I'm better than they are! I don't have to take shit from a man in Cheeto stains!

This is why I'm so pissed about Minx, actually. It's not the name (which is stupid and flirty, but then so are teenage girls), but the low proportion of women involved in the thing. I don't begrudge any of the men working on the books; I'm not really interested in any of their comics, but I don't doubt that they could appeal to the audience they want, and I'm sure they're all very talented. I'm also not saying that only women can write women effectively, et cetera. What I am concerned about is something else. The Minx books, as I understand them, are chick lit with training wheels--Karen Berger came out and explicitly said that these books are NOT for boys, so lumping them in with the general YA stuff (which is more mixed in authorship and intended audience) isn't a fair comparison. Chick lit in the real world is written almost exclusively by chicks. Why is comicbook chick lit a sausage party? I know that it's because (in the case of this line) they were able to sell their ideas effectively, but I have a hard time believing that not one of the women that Minx approached were capable of coming up with something that would appeal to teenaged girls. If it's that the pay is low, then why are there men (several fairly established pros) willing to work for that amount? Is there no one out there who's just starting out (say, doing a webcomic or something) and who could really use the cash? The message it sends is that if we are female and we make comics, we can't even get work in the freaking pastel ghetto--what does that say about our chances elsewhere? It's all intensely discouraging, and it makes me want to wash my hands of the whole comics thing. (Not the Minx thing, which does not concern me directly. I hope it does well.)

Right now, because comics are still so closely tied to the direct market, that means that we have to keep an eye on what DC and Marvel are doing--hopefully that will change in the future, with the opening of the bookstore markets, but I'm not incredibly optimistic about that. Twenty years of "Bam! Zow! Comics aren't for kids anymore!" articles have dulled my enthusiasm for the premise, and most of the slots go to manga anyway. As long as we have to keep an eye on that fanboy sector, even just to glance at it, we are going to notice when things suck and when we might have an opportunity to selfishly improve them, serial readership be fucked.

As to why I want to make comics, that's because I'm an idiot.

Comments

( 22 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]echolocator wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 12:38 am (UTC)
But you're a discriminating idiot. Which is one of the things makes you worth reading-- not simply entertaining, but worth reading, I emphasize --and that's whether you're ranting or writing comics.

Well-crafted bit of incendiary, by the way. If it weren't for the fact that it'd be an absolute waste of time, I'd suggest spamming it around for the Cheetofingers to see.
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 02:39 am (UTC)
Yeah, we're not doing that. I'm just heavily frustrated lately, and it's made me cranky.
[info]scribbleomania wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 01:50 am (UTC)
You're right, too, though. I find comics and characters I enjoy, and then suddenly they get a new writer and I'm reading a soft-core porn magazine. It would be nice to not have to wade through AS much misogyny and exploitation in order to find ones I like. Maybe I would, you know, buy comics again.

It's not a great industry for women there, as a writer or a consumer. You might be an idiot, but...we appreciate it. :p
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 03:00 am (UTC)
Thanks, I think.

The thing that kills me is that I really want to like more comics, but I just can't. Part of that is because I'm just really picky, but I think a lot of that is in the material, especially with the mainstream stuff. I am such a moron. :(
[info]scribbleomania wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 03:17 am (UTC)
I know. It's hard to like something that has so much suck everywhere.

Hey, you aren't a moron--you clearly have an uphill climb with getting into the industry, but it's brave and, frankly, awesome. (Though I'm sure that doesn't really help with feeling frusterated, but.) Plus, you're a great writer, in my opinion.
[info]raielchan wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 01:55 am (UTC)
I got no problem with DC minx line. So basically, they want their own shoujo manga line, compared to Marvel only have MJ Loves Spiderman or whatever.

Still, reading the below has made me say, "what the hell."

*WATER BABY (October 2007)
Surfer girl Brody just got her leg bitten off by a shark. What's worse? Her shark of an ex-boyfriend is back and when it comes to Brody's couch, he's not budging.

They need to add a time travelling robot to this, and it's perfect, perfectly terrible.


[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 02:37 am (UTC)
I have no problem with the line either--it's the execution I don't like.

Also, that's a weird one o_O.
[info]phthoggos wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 07:38 am (UTC)
I think it's a metaphor. Her ex-boyfriend is not really a shark.

I think.
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 02:36 pm (UTC)
The wind cries, "Sharko..."
Of course not.

He's a demon shark!
[info]thehefner wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 05:07 am (UTC)
Great, thoughtful, well-crafted rant. Your passion for (and frustration toward) comics is/are why I love reading your LJ.

Also: Twenty years of "Bam! Zow! Comics aren't for kids anymore!" articles have dulled my enthusiasm for the premise...

I'm glad someone else has noticed that trend too. It's things like that which I'd like to put in my big eventual Hefner Monologue about life at the comic shop (and as a comic fan). Although I am very concerned with if such a story could hold the attention of non-comic-readers, for whom pointing out things like those very newspaper articles is mainly directed.
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 09:47 pm (UTC)
Save that one for your appearance at SDCC, man :D.
[info]jlg1 wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 05:34 am (UTC)
I get that feeling too. It would be so easy to just to leave. And believe me, I've had people tell me I should just quit and find a "new hobby." But, of course, I still stick around, following what's going on, because I'm too much of a goddamned, stubborn idiot to just give it up. It really isn't easy to give up something you like and want to do. You want to explore what the medium and genre can really do, you have great ideas with the characters of your choice, you want to change things.

Adorno once said things like making or listening to music where "part and parcel of his life," and to call them hobbies - "preoccupations to kill time" - is making a mockery of them. I think you're touching on that when you're talking about how you relate to comics when you're making them. It's insulting when someone implies something you take seriously and invest so much time and care into is a frivolous time filler or only for base, shallow pleasures.

It's something about the sequential medium, I think. DC and Marvel's universes will continue as long as they are able to, unlike closed narratives. New people will come on and continue with it. And with fans taking up creative roles (Simone, Quesasa I think, Meltzer, Johns, for a few), it sorta gives hope that new fans can continue things or fix it. Of course, to do either of those, you have to be up to date with continuity and trends, which is why we're all still looking on. Hoping that the characters we care about and want to explore aren't irrevocably ruined (such as all that hope about comic book death not being permanent despite threats by editors and writers).

But that new blood replacing the old creators will be different, with new directions and interests (especially considering the impact of manga and indie comics, and other media). I think the readership and market will change, eventually. Right now, it's all obsessed with recycling their nostalgia and trying to be "mature" while having as much substance as a potboiling Hollywood action movie. It sucks having to wait for the opportunity for change. But hopefully a new generation will do away with all the abuses of the current one in creative power.

You're not an idiot for wanting to make comics. Keep wanting to improve things, keep calling out what sucks. Good luck with your comics!

(I'm sorry if I clogged up your journal with my crazy ranting and self-centeredness....)
[info]phthoggos wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 07:35 am (UTC)
yay! I was hoping someone would talk about this. It relates to a question I've had for a while now, namely "why are there such things as comics fans?" Traditionally, if you like a comic then you like comics, and you are expected to have strong opinions about comics of all kinds. Which is really fucking bizarre. If I like Salman Rushdie am I a novel fan?

...Okay, now that I've read your post, some responses:

1) I don't see why you have to pay any more attention to the direct market than Jeph Jacques or Ryan North, or Chris Hazelton, or Raina Telgemeier, or Phil Foglio, or Alison Bechdel, for that matter.
2) Judging from Goodbye Chains, I'd say your pacing is more manga-like than you think. I'd also say that with the exception of bullshit genre tropes, the difference between Eastern and Western comic storytelling has become so narrow in recent years as to be irrelevant. But that's another debate.
3) Maybe I've hopped a little too early onto the Magic Happy Train of Bookstore Sales and Mainstream Acceptance, but I'm surprised to hear you attribute so much importance to the DM. You don't want Cat Piss Man reading your work anyway, right? So fuck him. Fuck him and the comics he likes. In a world where new non-DM-oriented comic publishers are born every six months, where even Terry Moore and Fantagraphics make more money outside the DM than in it, I think we're well on our way to a completely new comics market, even if the graphic novel boom is just a temporary fad.
4) Just because they're displayed in the same market of theaters doesn't mean Michel Gondry has to worry too much about the next Spy Kids movie... right? Clearly there are some universals (rising ticket prices, declining numbers of theaters, whatever), but they're not going to change his creative process. And if Spy Kids 5 is direct-to-DVD, well then that's a different story.
5) I know my perceptions are hopelessly skewed. I read Warren Ellis and Dirk Deppey every day; I purchase thousands of dollars of comics every year; I supervise a small army of college students who are experienced and passionate about a huge variety of comics. With that in mind:
6) I have no idea what the national American perception of comics is. I haven't conducted any surveys. The fact that "Biff Pow Zap" headlines are STILL getting printed in newspapers (which makes me throw up in my mouth every time, and not just a little) suggests that it's still news to some people. But Marjane Satrapi and Chris Ware are in the New York Times. American Born Chinese was nominated for its thing. Comics are on NPR. They're in EW and PW and fucking Cosmo Girl. This was not the case five years ago. These things have to mean something.
7) What do you think of the Flight school? (as a hipster-hating writer-not-artist, you're probably not a fan)
8) Have you read Strange Girl? I'm afraid that it's started to lose its way, but the first TPB is delightful and I suspect you'll either like it or have intelligent criticisms of it.
9) Er, what sort of comics (including manga) do you like?
10) Is it too much to hope for the immediate destruction of every shitty comic shop? Like, say, Diamond shipping out a dirty bomb with every copy of a Jim Balent comic?
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 09:46 pm (UTC)
It's not that unusual--you might not call yourself a "novel fan," but you could call yourself a "reader," or a "film buff," or a butt freak or a sports fan, etc. Though I'm sure that all those guys out there (and gals, because sports are fun) who have a hard-on for the NBA and NFL don't give much of a crap about cricket.

Your specific points:

1. It's force of habit--I first got the idea for Goodbye Chains on the Thursday before 9/11. so I've been thinking of this for a long time now. Back then, the bookstore stuff really WAS a pipe dream, and I haven't really been convinced that comics are there to stay. Or at least that mine would be welcome in a bookstore--it's a comic, but it's also a Western, and not even a straight-up or horror-mixed Western. It doesn't exactly have the appeal of other books that were successful in the market. I believe that it's good, mind, I'm just realistic about my chances. (Hence why it goes online first. If I can build a market for free...)

2. You're probably right--I'd be surprised if I didn't absorb something from the manga I've read. Still, I don't set out with the intention of making OEL or anything like that; if it's influenced by manga, that's fine, but I don't want to call it that. (Besides, no one's gone all super-deformed and there have been no roses in the backgrounds.) The pacing might be there, but the emotional tricks aren't. At any rate, GC was the first comic I ever wrote (and rewrote, and rewrote); those that I start fresh aren't like that anymore. For example, Zombies of North America has a much more breakneck pace, and Thirty Birds is VERY fast. (The King of Calamari we will not talk about right now, because I forgot where I was with that. Unfortunately. But as I recall it was also pretty zippy.)

3. I agree--fuck CPM and everything he stands for and likes and is. Fuck his family and nonexistent genetic legacy while I'm at it. However, I'm much more pessimistic about the bookstore market than you are, for one reason: I don't see it happening where I am. Every time I'm anywhere near a chain bookstore, I stop in so I can scope out the graphic novel section. And every time, it's the same: 4 pure cases of manga, half a case of graphic novels, and the other half is filled with roleplaying books. The American graphic novels are usually superhero and Vertigo collections, though occasionally you do get something from Fantagraphics or Top Shelf for variety. (Usually, Satrapi and Clowes.) The manga shelves may occasionally have a few OEL books scattered about, but any American works published in digest format are excluded from them. I've never seen a copy of Scott Pilgrim in a bookstore in my life; Hell, I've never even seen Johnny the Homicidal Maniac there. The graphic novel display table, if there is one, is half-devoted to big splashy superhero/newspaper strip artbooks and the glossy anthologies (like Flight or Mangaka America), and half-devoted to Scott McCloud and the various Idiot's Guides to comic-making. If there is a huge boom in bookstore sales of domestic product, I'm not seeing it.

And incidentally, it's not like I'm in Buttfuck, AR--I'm in the megalopolis on the East Coast! I've looked in Center City, in the Philly suburbs, in Jersey, in Boston, in New York, in Rhode Island, and all over Connecticut, and the pattern holds true wherever you go. The only place that ever broke the chain was the Strand in New York, and their graphic novel section was a mess--and even then, it didn't have things like, say, Fun Home. Though it did seem to have a lot of less-popular Oni books, like that Off-Road thing.

So while I'd really like to believe that bookstores are going to be a booming market for my work, I'd also like to believe in Santa. Thus far I've seen neither.

4. He would if 80% of the films being released in theaters featured plucky children saving Antonio Banderas, and every person working in the theater treated you like shit whenever you thought of maybe seeing another movie, and tales of magical theaters where normal people went and laughed and loved were mostly apocryphal.

(Continued)
[info]phthoggos wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 11:42 pm (UTC)
I misspoke -- the weird thing is not that "comics fans" exist, but the perception that they are the only people who read comics, and liking a comic instantly makes you one. I am, obviously -- I fucking love almost everything we bring in, and we bring in a hell of a lot -- but I no longer expect everyone else to be. I don't throw Watchmen (or Sandman) at everybody who comes through the door anymore -- it's a fantastic book if you like that kind of thing, but its appeal is hardly universal. There are definitely film geeks, who see Citizen Kane and The Godfather the way people see Watchmen and DKR, but they don't control the market -- my guess is, DVD sales are build on a foundation of folks picking up that Eddie Murphy movie 'cause they heard it was pretty good. "Biff Pow Zap! Comics aren't just for comic fans anymore," I guess is my point. The casual reader is (or has the potential to be) the most important force in the industry, and I think they're undervalued.

2. Uh oh. A zombie comic?

2.5. It's interesting that "fast-paced" can mean two opposite things in comics -- either "a lot happens in a single page" or "brief moments take up a huge amount of space and force you to turn pages quickly." Yeah?

3. The Powell's chain here in Portland has a great selection of comics, with separate sections for kid manga, adult manga, superhero comics, and other comics, all pretty well-stocked. From what I can remember, the Borders near my house in North Carolina had a decent (if haphazard) selection, and they had finally moved them away from the roleplaying games and Star Trek novels. But I'll take your word for it. Certainly things could be better.
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2006 04:01 am (UTC)
Ah, I see. Well, that's comics' own fault--if they made it easier to be a casual reader, people might actually, y'know, BE casual readers. The way it is now, what with serialization and callbacks to 20-year-old storylines still dominating a large chunk of the market, it's no wonder that the perception is that you have to devote yourself to the medium.

2. Don't you "uh oh" me. Ours is good. And unusual. And also, half convenient reference book.

2.5. Yeah, I agree. In this case, I mean the former. I don't linger on anything anymore.
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 5th, 2006 09:47 pm (UTC)
6. I'm not a scientist (well, I am, but I haven't done the research), but based on my own personal experiences, the national perception of comics is still that they are for deviants and the retarded. None of my friends or acquaintances read comics of their own volition; their reaction to my work (proposed work) has been supportive, but not exactly favorable. Whenever I tell them about, say, Identity Crisis or Infinite Head-Comes-Off or even this gender imbalance in the Minx line, they roll their eyes and say, "Typical." Not because they are annoyed with me, I think, but because these things I tell them are just another symptom of the larger problem with comics--that they are for deviants and the retarded and the generally gynophobic, and they are not for anyone else. And my friends are the latte-drinking, NPR-listening, NYT-reading sort. Many of them actually like manga. None of them want anything to do with comics.

7. I've never read any of the anthologies (personal vendetta), but looking at the authors listed on their site, I do like a good proportion of their work outside of Flight (especially the Pants Press girls). I enjoyed Dylan Meconis' "Bite Me" back before it went behind the Girlamatic firewall (that Ottaviani book she's working on sounds great), and I think Jen Wang is a good cartoonist. I don't know enough about the others to judge very well. (That reminds me, I must find out when the next 24seven is due. Have to lean on Little Sister to get that drawn.)

8. I haven't. Because of my finances, unless I'm certain that I'm going to like something, I don't buy comics. I'd rather spend my money on things I know I like, like DVDs. My university library is pretty deficient in this respect.

9. Well, Ye Olde Bookshelf isn't too full-up with comics; I do like Monster, One Piece and Fruits Basket, but I fell behind in my manga-reading and haven't bothered to look for more of it lately. I did like Welcome to the NHK, which I think is newly out from Tokyopop, and Record of a Yokohama Shopping Trip. In general I like Clowes and Moore, hate Gaiman, and have such a crush on Kyle Baker that it's not even funny. The stuff I like, I really like--it's just that it only takes up a shelf or so.

10. No. Let them burn.
[info]phthoggos wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2006 12:03 am (UTC)
6. My response here gets to the heart of things, I think, which is this. I don't remember where I read it, probably from a bunch of different sources including George Lakoff's political linguistics and some of the comics-activism writing on Savant. The idea is, using the vocabulary (linguistic and semantic) of your enemy, even to denegrate him, still gives power to your enemy because saying "A should not be B" still forms a mental link between A and B. The way to get new ideas into the public consciousness is to start using them as if they were already true, and soon the world will catch up. That might be overstated, and it's not a theory I'm 100% committed to.

But in practice, I don't waste a lot of energy talking shit about Civil War or Whoops Vicar Is That Your Infinite Crisis or Mario Gully's Ant, when instead I can talk up Scott Pilgrim and Death Note and Craig Thompson. At no point did I announce to my mailing list "superhero comics are stupid and this is why," I just started pointing out how much I fucking love Tintin and Osamu Tezuka, and hey 300 is getting made into a movie, and if you like Harry Potter you should really check out Courtney Crumrin. Comics shouldn't be this weird club or lifestyle choice where you're either in or you're out. They're just books with pictures in them, and some of them are really awesome.

The less my readers know about Jim Balent, the better.

[edited for clarity]
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2006 04:11 am (UTC)
Y'see, I consider that false optimism--yeah, I could only focus on the good things about comics, but from where I am the bad things tremendously outweigh the good. It's dishonest to present things that way, and I'm a terrible liar. When I come across a book I do like, then I do introduce it to people (I've lent out the Rabbi's Cat quite a bit), but at the same time I'm not going to sugarcoat what I see are glaring issues in the industry. I'm not willing to give comics a better rap than I think they deserve, especially not when that reputation has the potential to hurt me in some fashion.

I think you and I are going about this in different ways--yours builds an audience, while mine spites those who have annoyed me and therefore must die. I suspect it's a personality defect on my end.
[info]phthoggos wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2006 05:59 am (UTC)
I guess I believe in speaking two different languages, one for civilians and one for "insider baseball." To tell Brad Meltzer "Comics is on the way up! Thanks for your help, guy!" is to omit serious concerns that you have about his writing and psychological makeup, but to bring up comics misogyny to your non-comics-reading-friends is to ultimately hurt the long-term potential of non-misogynist comics work, because it repels potential readers of that work.

(is, e.g., Adrian Tomine committing sins of omission by not involving himself in the muckraking of his industry? Or does he successfully transcend the dirty politics of a market that has little to do with with him? Discuss.)

I guess the ideal compromise would be a combination of the two approaches? "The new Supergirl is an abomination; that's why I'm buying Street Angel instead." That way your message gets communicated in a way that's helpful to both insiders and outsiders.

I agree that it's dishonest to "give comics a better rap than they deserve," but what if the praise is selectively targeted? I've never argued that Rob Liefeld is a force for good, to you or to anyone. Refusing to mention him to new readers doesn't enhance his image, it just helps make him irrelevant.

I think the problem is that we're talking about a lot of distinct concepts that tend to get collapsed in everyday conversation. A) Individual comics, of course, deserve praise or scorn variously depending on their merits. B) Comics, as a medium, deserves respect insofar as it's been historically denigrated and should be brought up to a neutral level. C) American comic book culture, insofar as it's a superhero-centric, collectibility-based and Cat-Piss-Man-driven sausage party, deserves whatever painful death it gets. D) "Comics," as a theoretical notion encompassing all of these things, is an illusion. The problem consists of how to honestly promote B and the good As without supporting C or the bad As.

Oh god, this is turning into a complete mess. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.
[info]phthoggos wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2006 07:04 am (UTC)
I think I'm also influenced by James Sime, who has put the "be the change you want to see in the world" idea to practice in retail. He talks about it here.
[info]heykidzcomix wrote:
Dec. 6th, 2006 04:11 am (UTC)
That is, false optimism if *I* were to do it. Didn't mean to cast aspersions on the sincerity of your feeling.
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